Discussion
So, I'm having an interesting discussion with a friend on a message board. He belongs to the Orthodox Church, believes that no one goes to Hell when they die, and thinks that Jesus' message was primarily about *this* life and not the next. So far I agree.
Our discussion is centered around the events in Christ's life, and whether them actually taking place in the time line has any affect on the meaning derived from them. I'm quite enjoying this discussion, so I'm going to paste some parts of it here for remembrance sake...and for anyone who wishes to continue it. :)
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I guess I find so much meaning in the story that I'm not sure what affect its historicity would have on its impact?
I mean, say we had the bible, but the names were all changed...would it still have the same power? If it doesn't, is it a meaningful difference, or does it just have less power because it's not what we are used to? Or, say someone came up with undeniable proof that Jesus never existed at all, would that shake your faith?
I see your point here. And I know for a great many people throughout history it has been somewhat of a security blanket that gives them courage and strengthens their faith. But, I guess, that's exactly my point. It's a huge comfort, and since when did Jesus tell us to seek comfort? Again, I'm not arguing that the story *wasn't* historically true, I just think that we tend to be way too attached to that aspect, and it can limit our understanding so that we miss some of the most profound and meaningful things in the story itself.I think it was important to them for a number of reasons, including validation of Jesus' claims, encouragement in their sorrow, hope that they share the same fate, and confidence that they could now risk their lives and do anything they dreamt of.
I guess I am just wary of attachment to particulars.
For me, even thinking that the story may be entirely myth, I still find incredible power in it. My life experience validates Jesus' claims. The concepts in the story give me encouragement in my sorrows and hope for my own resurrection (mainly in my life here, but sure after death too). It doesn't always give me the courage to risk everything and follow my dreams, because often my vision is clouded by fear. But when I am calm and centered, I see clearly and that courage comes to me in waves. I worry that a courage based on a particular historical event is a way to deny that fear. It's a subtle underlying aspect of human life, and it cannot be denied.
The only way to be rid of it is, as through Jesus' example, letting it in and not avoiding it. It's a subtle thing I'm talking about, how someone might push down a feeling of fear because of their unshattering faith in a particular event...versus understanding what that event tries to show us (regardless of whether it happened that way or not) and listening to that advice and being open and receptive...even to fear and suffering.
It did have to happen, in the story, because of what it means. Because of how it teaches us. It would make sense that Jesus would acknowledge that it has to happen, because part of his point is that even seeing something like this looming up ahead in our future, we must not be afraid, for there is nothing to fear. If you imagine Jesus' prediction as a literary device in the story of the resurrection, it makes a lot of sense. Not that it can't be real as well, but it seems that the meaning is there regardless.Let's not forget though that it was important to Jesus too. For some reason, it had to happen, he predicted that it would, and told his followers to look forward to it.
Do you really think the Bible becomes empty and meaningless if these events didn't happen? Acknowledging that the events may not have taken place in real life does not take away from the profundity and the *truth* found in the story. This story puts into beautiful and precise terms what so many other stories try to get at...some with better success than others. It speaks directly to our hearts the way only stories can. And there are echoes of these truths in almost every story we write, in almost every life we live. But here we have it unclouded by the fear in our normal stories. Jesus is a character without fear (or rather, who does not act of fear), without sin, and the huge tragedy in his life puts God's lessons to us practically in neon lights.But as to why it should be important historically, I guess I don't really have an answer right now, but it seems inseparable from the story, to me anyway. Perhaps they are pat Christian answers, but if it's just a story, and never happened, and the Son of God didn't exist, and the Incarnation didn't really happen, I'm forced ask what the point would even be then? Besides just trying to be a better person by modeling your life after a character in a story. And the Gospels, as well as the other NT writings, and the writings of those shortly thereafter, place great importance upon these events really happening.
It's so much more than just trying to be a better person. It's discovering the path to truth, to life. It's trusting in the process, even if it looks like it is leading you toward death...because the path to death is a path to rebirth. It teaches us that there is no need to fear, ever. And that love is a never ending spring; the more you pour out of yourself the more you have. It is about letting go.
Stories are meant to teach eternal truths in such a way that we can resonate with them on the deepest level. Christ's story is one of, if not the, most profound of all. I don't know about you, but when I talk about these things my heart fills with excitement and joy at the sheer *truth* of it all. It's incredible.
Well, I'm not a bible scholar, so I can't tell you what his original meaning was. I can only tell you what I gather from it. Why must Paul be talking about a concrete event? In the same passage he talks about the reflection between Christ and Adam. But you don't believe Adam existed. You have no attachment to the particulars in that story. Yet somehow what Paul says is true, isn't it? That what was introduced with Adam is now overcome by Christ. Is it an event that somehow canceled out a prior event? No, because the prior event never happened in real life. It was a myth. But the meaning of it is still strong...and the eternal aspect of the myth, the truth of it...is now reflected and expanded on in the story of Christ.Question for you, what was Paul meaning when he said if Jesus didn't really die and rise again, our faith is in vain? If it's not important as an event that really happened, why do they all place so much importance upon it?
I don't think he's really talking about Christ being risen on a concrete level (though again, it may be concrete as well), but on a personal and existential level that goes much deeper. If Christ is not risen, if there is no rebirth after death, then your faith and your preaching are worthless. You do not fully believe in the meaning you preach. You do not truly have faith. You are still in sin because you are still in fear of death and suffering. And in your mind, those who are asleep (notice he doesn't say dead, interesting) have no hope of awakening, so why preach? I think he's showing how their point of view is reflective of an inner state of despair and fear, when it should be one of hope and life.
Anyway, just my perspective.
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Comments
You say that you are not a Bible scholar. Perhaps if you would just read your Bible assuming that the God who created the universe is big and wise enough to communicate with us clearly, the Truth would become more apparant.
I actually think this is a very subtle and insideous form of error because it ridicules the absolute truth and inspiration of God's Word. To say that it doesn't matter if it really happened is to call God a liar.
Hebrews 11:6
without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.
NKJV
I do not call God a liar, I call God a genius and master artist.
That God meant what he said historically does not prevent us from a personal and deeper application to our lives. When we receive Jesus Christ by faith we have another element available to us and that is the Holy Spirit who guides us as we read the Word.
What I am picking up from the conversation is the implication that the "tip of the iceburg" may or may not be true. I have been a Christian for many years and I spend a great deal of time in God's Word. It never grows old or stale and I find it adequate for all of life's challenges. But that does not take away from the reality that if you were there and touched the cross you could get an actual splinter in your hand.
Outward events and stories are meant to point to something deeper, regardless of whether they happened or not. It just seems that Christians focus so much on the outside that the inner meaning is often neglected. And so as a people we find perhaps more inspiration from characters in movies and stories, where no claim to factuality is made, because there is nothing to distract us from that deeper meaning. And when Christians present the story of Christ to the world, they do so only in literal/historical terms....the very things that non-Christians necessarily cannot (and in some cases refuse to) identify with. If we approached things from the *true* foundation of our faith, that deeper meaning that actually resonates with people's lives regardless of their religion or lack thereof, we might be much more successful.
The problem is that looking deeper is much more difficult. It's so much easier to understand and then to explain historical events and to let these define the religion...after all, that is what makes Christianity different from other religions, so that must be the defining characteristic. But it's not what is truly essential. The deeper meaning is universal and extremely personal at the same time. The event itself is not...unless you've already grasped a part of the deeper meaning (though even here, most Christians barely scratch the surface of the wealth of wisdom found in Christianity).
Essentially, the point is that the literal/historical view can either help or harm us. It can provide a boat across the river to that deeper meaning, or it can obscure our vision of it. The more fiercely we hold on, the more closed we become, and the less we are able to see.
"If we approached things from the *true* foundation of our faith, that deeper meaning that actually resonates with people's lives regardless of their religion or lack thereof, we might be much more successful"
You are right in this. We would probably be more successful in the eyes of the world. No one would have called the apostles successful in their day since all but one were martyred for their faith in the reality that Jesus was the promised Messiah who became a man who actually died and arose from the dead for our sins. This, above all, was the foundation of their faith - all else was built on that.
As for our message to the world, Jesus said, "If I be lifted up I will draw all men to me." "I am the way, the truth and the life, no man comes to the Father but by me.
And that's okay. I think we may have to agree to disagree, unless you really want me to go into the topics of transformation, religious exclusivity, and what I believe Jesus meant by that quote.