The Human Condition

Comments

[this is good]
Again, you deserve credit for asking the tough questions.

Origins of Evil
It's an interesting hypothesis, not sure if I buy into it, though.
[this is good]

Interesting thoughts.

Lets throw something into the mix here. Evil and Good are both constructs *defined*, albeit loosely, by humans. Furthermore, defined by civilized humanity. They do not exist inherently in nature - everything just Is.

Where do these definitions come from? And since they are not universal, can they be altered, such that good is easier performed than evil? Or evil is eliminated completely?

You know I don't comment much, but I figured I'd throw in my random and skewed thoughts.

Instead of agreeing or attempting to counter certain points though, I'll just bring up two things for now:

I don't really see the paradoxical as much as I see the denial. People may believe radically different things, but it's all rooted in denial (if one follows your line of thinking).

Second, if "good" acts come from where you say they do, then they inherently aren't "good." (And, while I agree with the above about good and evil being human constructs, I'm just going with the idea of staying within the boundaries of human ideologies). A good act is done because it's a good act. It's not done to try to be a good person. It's not done to achieve some semblance of immortality. It's not done because it's how you get to Heaven.

I'm trying not to be cliche and throw out, "What is a lie? What is the truth?" . . .

Well, nertz.
Good point. It could be answered "both" from the level of construct (I am me and you are you, but I am more real than you so my judgments are "real"), neither from the level of "no thing" (I don't exist therefore you are part of me and all judgments are nothing) and considered a completely inappropriate question from the level of thinking that I exist separate from you, but we are equally existent.

(Excellent post by the way Kristen.)
I agree that the denial is the more important of the two, and the most obviously true. Showing where that denial comes from is harder, and that was Becker's attempt to do so (by exposing the undercurrent of the fear of death in every action).

As for what good is, I was thinking in terms of what we generally call good motives. We are motivated to be good (notice the absense of the word only) because of our need for immortality / avoiding death. I still don't find this as strong or as convincing as taking the will to control (without presuming where it comes from) and trying to show how our actions stem from it.

Part of my point was that you cannot call man by nature good nor bad. These things that we call good and bad are consequences of our state of nature, they aren't *the* state of nature.

But the main point that I myself wanted to get across was that we have this lie, this will to control, this avoidance of things that undermine us, and it is an integral part of our behavior and existence. And since it is a lie, we should do our best to try and rid ourselves of it, no matter the cost.


I should point out my two sources. The Denial Of Death by Ernest Becker obviously gave me the material on the denial of death (funny that, huh?). The will to control bit, though present in Becker's work, is best described in The Way of Suffering: A Geography of Crisis by Jerome Miller. I think Miller's book is much easier to understand and much more plainly true.
Was that you who left the LJ comment?
I watched the whole thing. I think it would be naive of me to dismiss this as the ramblings of a crazy group of people. I'm not going to do that. I can't say it isn't true, but I didn't find anything in it all that compelling. Sure, it could be an explanation for things, but it didn't seem like it had any compelling features that made it *the* explanation for things.

Besides that, it didn't seem to get into what I am really interested about the human condition. Why do we lie to ourselves, what do the lies look like, how do we rid ourselves of lies, and what will it look like if we succeed? Even with some sort of alien master race, the question still exists, only in regards to them.
Yep - sorry about that.
Laura's Comment from LJ (corrected):

This is why I am finding Buddhism so fascinating.

They claim there are 3 levels to consciousness.

The first is self and other - where "I" am the center of the universe. You exist as separate from me, but you aren't really as real to me as I am to myself.

The second is state of the mystic who experience no "I". These are usually the people who have had some sort of experience of "no thing" and so deny the physical. The you I see is a part of me - no differentiation. So it's considered a state beyond the I am me and you are you but I am more me than you are you state.

These people often deny the physical but I wouldn't say it's necessarily because they can't deal with the uneasiness of the physical. It's just a different state of consciousness. They've seen through the physical. But it's only a temporary state.

The third stage is back to self and other but it's totally different than the first. Instead of me being more real than you, you are equally existent as I am existent. Your victory is my victory, even if under the first level of consciousness it might be seen as my loss and under the second as non-existent.

There is a Buddhist saying:

Mountain
No Mountain
Mountain

As far as shedding the vital lie - on one level, it doesn't exist because reality is what it is - reality. The lie is just a mistaken perception. But trying to shed it is like trying to not see pink elephants.
Actually, Laura, I think that the first state corresponds to the human condition I described. The avoidance of anything that has the power to undermine you.

In fact, I think the purpose of Buddhism (and of all religion) is to figure out how to shed the vital lie. We'll never succeed fully, but I do think that each religion gives us a path to walk that will attempt to rid us of our delusions and see reality as it is, rather than how we want to see it. But we shouldn't jump ahead of ourselves, because if we jump into religion too quickly, Stephen won't follow us! ;)

For Stephen: Be patient. Don't try to jump to religion and God too quickly. I'll keep my arguments and secular and scientific as possible, you just see if you agree. ;)


I might be missing something, but I think we're in a spiral of sorts. For us to have this lie, it must be opposite (or at least, simply not) our nature.

But, that's the question, isn't it? What is our nature?

To run with the mental picture provided (not sure if that was yours or from Becker), if we are born empty, then the removal of this "vital lie" will return us to said emptiness. Then, one can make the argument for either our nature being one of emptiness, or that our nature is actually the entire essence of refusing to be simply nothing, i.e. denial.

If that's the case, then no, I don't think the lie is one that should be destroyed. For no other reason than I think I'd rather be something than literally nothing.

But, I don't really have a solid opinion on anything, yet. I'm mostly trying to perpetuate an interesting conversation and make sure I'm not getting hung up on semantics and terminologies. And, I have a really bad habit of playing devil's advocate. ^_^
Exactly, it's our nature to deny our nature. ;)

And the answer to your question is exactly the one we're looking for. If we're lying to ourselves to try to fill in a gap, then (a) should we try to stop lying, and (b) if we succeed, will we really be left only with a gap?

I used that picture of gap because that's kind of what it feels like to feel helpless. On second thought, I think perhaps a better way to make a picture is one of a shield. Our nature is exposed and relatively helpless, and so we build up our sheilds around us, but the sheilds aren't made of metal, they are made of imaginary metal. We just have to believe that they exist for them to do their job of letting us forget how exposed we are.

A quote posted by mystico_tala the discussion in our book/movie club:

Ah, well, great systems give comfort, and when we feel ourselves slipping into despair, we should devise great schemes of the nothing around us, and then we will not slip but hang on a scaffold of our making, as meaningless as nothing, but too detailed to be so easily dismissed.

This is somewhat what I mean.
So many refreshes . . . O_o

Ehhh. If our nature really is to deny our nature, then we are neither the gap, nor something exposed and helpless. Our nature would be the proverbial shield itself.

Is there a difference between what we are and what are natures are?

What we are could be insignificant nothings. Our nature could be the denial of said insignificance.

It feels like we're not tackling what our natures are, so much as we're trying to figure out if our . . . innate defense mechanism of creating elaborate systems of comfort (denial, but approached from the opposite side) is truly for the best.

Unless, you actually are talking about stripping away our nature, which would then be the denial of denying our nature . . . . ow.
Haha! Quite the brain twister!

I would say that our nature is not necessarily insignificant nothings, but of exposed and relatively powerless somethings. It can be debated whether or not being exposed and powerless means being insignificant nothings, but that remains to be seen.

I do want to figure out if our innate defense mechanism (that arises as a consequence of our nature) is truly for the best. That is exactly the question that I want to ask.
I'm actually writing a paper for school as I'm responding here, so my brain is twisted enough as is >_< (See? I can't stop using smileys . . .)

I'm going to tentatively say . . . I think denial is wrong, but refusal is alright.

Denial is a false belief. We're creating something so that we don't have to look at the reality.

Refusal, however, is simply saying no.

It's more, "Yes, I know I'm exposed and powerless, but I want to be more," versus, "I'm not powerless . . . I'm not powerless . . . I'm not powerless . . ."

Then again, wanting to be more than what you are could simply be a positive spin on denying your nature. But, I do think it sounds nice.
I think it is most definitely a positive spin...however, at least you're on the right track. At least you're not lying to yourself.

I propose we try it (theoretically of course), and see what happens. I'm considering putting out a series of posts that generally correspond to Jerome Miller's The Way of Suffering. I think it is the best book on the subject, but we'll see. :)

Maybe at the end of the rainbow we'll encounter nothingness, or maybe we'll encounter something else...
I think I'll take you up on the challenge. But, I would tackle it as an "everyman." No books for me, at least not yet. Nothing save for a core idea, and whatever life sends my way.

I've been partial to this method of thinking/living, as it helps prevent me from latching on to something because I like it or think it's cool. The conundrum of, "Do I believe this because I believe it? Or simply because I want to believe it?" I'm not yet honest enough with myself to ever truly answer that.


For some reason, this feels like sleeping without a night light for the very first time . . . .
I wish you luck! Stay tuned for more thoughts on the matter!

Speaking as a tiny blip in the timeline of human history, I think we just are. Some are connected, some are not.

Good and evil is subjective. I can do something I consider very good while you consider it very evil. Within ourselves, even when we do "evil" we justify it. We can be against killing yet see a state execution as just. We can kill in the name of our country, faith or self defense.

The "lie" as you call it, is becoming invested in desire and an inability to accept those things over which we have no power. It causes unnecessary suffering.

Precisely. Well said. :)
I agree that what you describe is the first condition, but it also touches upon the mystical state since many mystics seek the "no thing" consciousness as part of this avoidance, too. It's still a selfish reaction in response to a form of denial.

I think world religions point to the 3rd level of consciousness through the second, but most people only recognize the first and second. Buddha taught that we can be free of suffering and Jesus taught the good news. The lie doesn't exist - it's simply a misperception of the egoic mind. It's not our human condition, but rather the condition of an ego-centered reality and we are capable of transcending our ego. Most of us have had experiences of this transcendence whether we are religious or not. We don't cease to be human by doing this - just slightly more aware of what is around us.

Buddha didn't say all of life is suffering - just that all of unenlightened life is suffering. Likewise, the news Jesus preached was the good news - one of liberation. We aren't stuck. All we have to do is shift our awareness toward reality and away from denial and we are free.

Which would be easy to do except we tend to put far more faith in our ego-centered realities than in our actual reality. But, as long as it is our aim, then we can create it. It's up to us. It's evolutionary - not magic mumbo jumbo.
Real good (also known as love and that which flows from it) is original and creative and the highest form of truth and beauty. Goodness exists in and of itself. Evil is merely the perversion of something good. Evil and its actions and attemps to blot out humanity are the REAL mere blips, and the real "lie" is that good and evil are two equal powers.

Isnt it a bit tricky to define something subjective in terms of another subjective concept? Ive yet to see a universal definition of good, or love.

In terms of good and love being related, the idea run the risk of falling to the same problem as stated above - the matter of perception and relativity.

To combat this, it might be interesting to borrow a notion from basic physics - step one of any proof or problem is to define a point of reference, or scope. If you first limit the scope of good (or love) to *only* the relevant parties involved, then it likely becomes a much more trivial task to define good (or love).

I was trying not to go too far ahead, but yes, you're exactly right. We think of our basic nature as empty and unprotected, and so we build up the lie. The lie isn't what we are at base, but it is what protects us from the realization of what we are at base.

But we might find that if we stop running, what we thought would be so horrible isn't horrible at all. The emptieness and vulnerabilitly are not things we should hide from or deny. The (true?) religious life is about exposing the lie and living in truth. But I'll get to that in later posts. I'm trying to discuss this in non-religious terms, even though it is so easy to fall back on them. If I don't build up the right base though, certain people won't follow my line of thought. ;)
I guess I don't follow where you are trying to go with this. My apologies.

[this is good]
Well said!

A good foundation in metaphysics (ontology) will definitely lead to conclusions that will clarify a lot of problems that are dwelled upon only on the level of what appears.

I can't remember the exact words of Dr. Knasas but he was talking to us about being and goodness and basically says that it is good to be. But that's only the starting point, the goodness of being is not something static but is actually enriched by activity and for the human person, this cannot be simply just any activity out there but activit which properly affirms his being person = a being who is good who is also oriented towards the good as guided by the light of truth.
Sorry Laura. You really are contributing great thoughts! I should have said that I plan on doing a series of follow up posts, in an attempt to illustrate how the will to control works, how to try to rid ourselves of it, and what lies at the end of the journey (if we can even get there).

Originally I was doing so in order to show this existentially & psychologically, without trying to bring religion into it only because my end goal is to show that religion's purpose and meaning is to do that very thing, and it contains tools and lessons that help us stop running from our fears and reduce the will to control.

Basically, I'm trying to show the main usefulness of religion, but I don't want to move too quickly to it, as it might be more easily dismissed by those who think it more of a harm than a good.
Great thoughts Dean!

I do think we are drawn towards goodness, at least subjectively. I don't think anyone really *wants* to think of themself as a bad person, and will generally try to do what they think is right (even if they are just rationalizing to themselves about something that is wrong). We *try* to be good, but we are weak and often fail miserably. But even in our darkest moments, we try *so* hard.

This is going to sound contradictory coming from me but I don't think religion or faith is necessary in this process. A person can eventually come to the point where they desire peace more than they desire warring against themselves and the natural order of things. We all have the tools already. It's simply a matter of looking at certain undeniable truths and accepting them. Putting them into practice is difficult but with practice you can move closer to your goal.

I've known several people who have believed they have entered into enlightenment but a truly enlightened person would never have the need or desire to display their "superior" vision. Simply by the definition, you can't "be it" and suggest you're reached "it".

I personally know of no one who has reached it but I know many who have found a degree of peace, at least as much peace as is humanly possible.

Oh I totally agree! You don't *need* religion in order to do it. What makes the journey easier, however, is some sort of wisdom from the past, so we dont' have to figure out everything from scratch. This could be from philosophy and literature, or it could be from a particular religious tradition. The wisdom helps you see these undeniable truths that we like to deny so much.

My main goal was to show the alternate purpose of religion, since most think of it as a form of mind-control (which it most definitely is when treated wrongly) or a source of infallible truth (also treated wrongly). I want to sort of change the image of religion that people have in their heads.
Ah! Well, I don't know if I necessarily share your conclusion:

my end goal is to show that religion's purpose and meaning is to do that very thing, and it contains tools and lessons that help us stop running from our fears and reduce the will to control.

I think religion's main purpose (at least the institution of religion) is crowd control and therefore seeks to limit our consciousness rather than to expand it so as to remain power over it. But I'm interested to see where you steer this. :)

I think we do have to figure it out from scratch. Other than pure science, which still changes from one generation to the next, our true wisdom is experiential and can't be taught from the experiences or teachings of another. We are all two year olds who don't quite believe fire is hot until we touch it. Knowing something and incorporating it into one's life are two entirely different things. They involve different processes. Everyone knows terrible things happen yet time and again, you hear victims saying, "I never thought this would happen to me". We have to be willing to face a certain amount of pain and discovery, (and most of it is personal discovery imo) in order to force ourselves to let go of earlier held beliefs.

I would have to disagree with changing the idea of religion people have in their heads. To do so would assume my truth is the truth for all and it's not necessarily so. It would also not tell someone else that my truth is greater than theirs, which is what I would be doing if I approached it from believing it was fallable when they believed it was infallible. If for no other reason than it being something they hold as sacred. I will respect that. I knew a girl in college who carried a bone of one of her ancestors and prayed to it. It was foreign concept and seemed unreasonable to me but I would fight to the death to protect that bone simply because it was holy to her.

I did say many people have reached as much peace as humanly possible. That doesn't mean I believe there is not a greater divine peace.

I don't mind exploring ideas and thoughts but to become invested in changing hearts and minds to my way of thinking is becoming invested in another untruth. Faith can not be changed or moulded by the philosophies of another. If that were the case, the Jewish faith would have been gone eons ago. There is an inner sanctum in each of us, our holy of holies if you will, that no one else should enter.

Of course, that's just my opinion.

I agree with you 100% Laura. I interpret what you're saying is the difference between religion, which is man's attempt to reach god, and communing with the creator and divine light which is god's attempt to reach us. One can be twisted beyond recognition by the whims of man. The other is eternal and completely incorruptible. One takes place in the mind, the other takes place in the deepest parts of our hearts.

Forgive me if I misinterpreted but it's what it seems to me.

Maybe I should clarify. The main purpose of religion *has* been crowd control, and that's a shame. I think that use is a real waste of some incredible wisdom. The main purpose of religion *should* be that of transformation and awareness of self. Unfortunately, many are not aware of this purpose or of the ways of thinking presented in religion that help us to do this. I'm not trying to say that religion is the *only* means for transformation, but that it most definitely aids in self-discovery and levels of consciouness.

I agree that much of life's wisdom must come from experience. That is very true. What religion (and philosophy, literature, science, etc) does is give you a framework for looking at and dealing with those experiences.

As for changing people's minds: What if the truth you're trying to convince them of is that everyone has a bit of the truth? The way that I want to approach religion is very individual and personal. It would be about trying to make yourself as aware as possible of yourself and who you want to be. So in telling them the truth, I wouldn't try to push my ideas on them, but help them to discover their own ideas. The only truth I would push is that not pushing (and not controlling) is the way. Unfortunately, this sometimes has very real consequences that we often may not like. But even then, the key is compassion and humility. ;)

[this is good]
Wow... I've been out of the loop for most of this conversation (for I have once again become a daily happy little prole who is on his way to work), which is a pity for there has been a whole heap of ground covered herein that interests me!

Hmm... I guess from my perspective human nature is not reducible to any one component... instead to me it is a spectrum of possibilities that are extremely hard to define and classify (especially since our need to define and classify is also a part of this spectrum). This being said I do agree that the existential divide between our transcendant conscious imaginations and our temporary fleshy beings creates a tension that leads often to denial. Even when we think we have accepted the hardships of life through acknowledgement we often find ourselves dazzled and amazed when we actually confront the things that we thought we had readied ourselves to face. In many ways saying that you have accepted that you will die is itself a delusion designed to ready yourself for this event that you can't be ready for since you never know how its going to feel or how things will transpire until you face it...

Personally, I think that there are many insights into the human condition (in religious perspectives, poetry, philosophy, science, music, art etc etc), however none of them provide an absolute solution... for life isn't a puzzle. It doesn't have a solution, except maybe for death in a morbid sort of sense. Life is an open system... it changes and evolves... it takes in energy to function and maintains itself in a stable disequilibrium. Death is when this state breaks down to stasis and what was once living then becomes innert.
Any answer or solution is itself innert, yet change and struggle are essential to life.
We human things seem to swing between security and insecurity, comfort and discomfort, the ordinary and the amazing, the yin and the yang, female and male, light and dark, good and evil etc...
Yet these are only really words that describe the tension of living reflecting the changing nature of life. No matter the goal that we aim for, when we acheive it, unless we die, we wake up another day and face the same struggles over again.
To me, this is simply a part of life. I often quote this line from the Tao Te Ching (and I look heavenwards as I do so again for one must poke fun at themselves), "The Tao that can be named is not the true Tao." In consequence, I aim for compassion, humility, faith and acceptance... yet it would be foolish of me to ever think that I had found a solution, for tomorrow I will again face unknowns and I will be challenged by things that I couldn't conceive.
Mayhap life is innately mysterious from the human perspective while at the same time it probably also 'just is,' and the seeming paradox of this might simply be how it is...

Hmm... have i gone off on an extreme tangent... oops :)

ps. Our experiences are never taken passively... our perceptions and persepctives also shape the way that we experience. The world is not received as pure data that we then have to interrupt... instead mayhap the world is 'malleable but firm'... it is shaped by our vision of it while at the same time its existance resists so that we can't simply see it any way we like. Yes, we do learn by our experiences, yet the perspectives we choose remain important for the shaping of what we experience (thus questioning is also important).

pss. There is probably several clerical and consistency errors herein somewhere... for I wrote it just now in a rush...

psss. Religion can be many things and can be seen in many ways and I don't think that theres any harm in reinterrupting theological musings... in fact, i find it more worrying when religious thought is not reinterrupted and is spouted as gospel (this is usually described as an act of control and subjugation).

pssss. hmm... gotta run, got an appointment with beer and trivia YAY! Thanks Kirsten for another thought provoking post. :)

Great response! From talking with you previously, you know that I agree whole-heartedly with what you said. :)

On your first PS...stay tuned...I think the idea of how we see things and how we construct meaning will be a big topic in the book club as we read The Unbearable Lightness of Being...also when we end up reading Annie Dillard's Pilgrim at Tinker Creek. You have some great ideas about seeing also being a combination of what's out there and what's in our heads. Stay tuned!

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